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Discussion Starter #1
After the xmas break, I thought I'd post up some of my Greenlaning over the plain. Some pictures of the snow we had too. The Church is St. Giles in Imber on the plain.
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Some more pics of the Byways of Wiltshire in the snow. The Pathfinder (Hank) didn't miss a beat.
 

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am so jealous all ourr BOATs have gone the way of TROs so all action is Derbyshire way or up in the Lakes but am not going up or down there until i get some proper sump guards and sliders been there done that repaired the damage V8 Jeep gearboxes are not cheap even secondhand
 

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Discussion Starter #4
am so jealous all ourr BOATs have gone the way of TROs so all action is Derbyshire way or up in the Lakes but am not going up or down there until i get some proper sump guards and sliders been there done that repaired the damage V8 Jeep gearboxes are not cheap even secondhand
It's a shame, they are slowly being taken away. Not sure why really, walker and horse riders have the rest of the country to roam over. :crying: But they seem to target the little bit of access they do have to share, and remove people from it.
 

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It's a shame, they are slowly being taken away. Not sure why really, walker and horse riders have the rest of the country to roam over. :crying: But they seem to target the little bit of access they do have to share, and remove people from it.
Nothing new though, I used to be a member of AWDC back in the 80's, did loads of greenlaning back then (in addition to loads of RTV trials). Gave up after years of anti 4x4 campaigns by ramblers and horse riders etc. They had 25K miles of routes at the time, we had 2.5K miles yet they still wanted us off those lanes. We even used to take part in green lane repair days and only 4x4 owners would turn up, never saw a rambler volunteer to do maintenance work yet first to call for bans on users that did maintenance. Some lanes in Hampshire went under TRO and vanished due to undergrowth growing back and ramblers then failing to use or maintain them. Many local to me ended up claimed by farmers as part of their fields after a few years of TRO.
 

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Nothing new though, I used to be a member of AWDC back in the 80's, did loads of greenlaning back then (in addition to loads of RTV trials). Gave up after years of anti 4x4 campaigns by ramblers and horse riders etc. They had 25K miles of routes at the time, we had 2.5K miles yet they still wanted us off those lanes. We even used to take part in green lane repair days and only 4x4 owners would turn up, never saw a rambler volunteer to do maintenance work yet first to call for bans on users that did maintenance. Some lanes in Hampshire went under TRO and vanished due to undergrowth growing back and ramblers then failing to use or maintain them. Many local to me ended up claimed by farmers as part of their fields after a few years of TRO.
That maybe because they belong to the farmers in the first place! I dont wish to get into an argument and I wont but many routes have been over used and wrecked as they were never intended for the amount of heavy driven mechanical traffic that they are faced with, they were brought about in the age of horse and cart which are excluded from bridleways. The many suffer from the few who are only interested in a green lane route when it is nearly impossible to negotiate just to prove they have bigger ***** than the next man. I know a few will throw your hands in the air but that is the view of many landowners who still own and are responsible for maintaining them.
 

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That maybe because they belong to the farmers in the first place! I dont wish to get into an argument and I wont but many routes have been over used and wrecked as they were never intended for the amount of heavy driven mechanical traffic that they are faced with, they were brought about in the age of horse and cart which are excluded from bridleways. The many suffer from the few who are only interested in a green lane route when it is nearly impossible to negotiate just to prove they have bigger ***** than the next man. I know a few will throw your hands in the air but that is the view of many landowners who still own and are responsible for maintaining them.
I agree with you.

I used to green lane on my own in a bog standard series land rover (other than mud tyres). These days I see convoys of vehicles with lifts, snorkels, arrays of spots and roll cages. Why? If the lane is so bad you can't get a stock truck down then it should not be driven.

HOWEVER these are rights of way that have existed for thousands of years and in many cases were quagmires when used with horse drawn iron wheeled wagons. To completely ban vehicular traffic often leads to the lanes becoming overgrown. Councils don't have money to maintain them and non-vehicular users such as ramblers do not volunteer for maintenance so the end result is a loss of a right of way. It is irrelevant who the land belongs to, they must rub their hands with joy when the anti 4x4 types get a lane closed because the subsequent inevitable loss of the ROW increases their land value. I have personally witnessed wealthy people extending gardens and even buildings over land that was previously a ROW. It suited them fine to have the TRO imposed and in two cases I knew of the land owners were the ones who petitioned for TRO and profited directly from that when they sold the land for development.

In my opinion the ROW's should be maintained as ROW's even if under TRO's. If the councils had to maintain the lanes under TRO I think there would be less TRO's issued and more willingness to work with voluntary organisations (mostly vehicular). Sadly in my experience, a temporary TRO often becomes permanent. Sure, some of that is due to idiots abusing them but some is down to profiteering. I would favour more draconian penalties for vehicles using lanes in poor condition than lose the ROW forever IMHO.
 

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I agree with you.

I used to green lane on my own in a bog standard series land rover (other than mud tyres). These days I see convoys of vehicles with lifts, snorkels, arrays of spots and roll cages. Why? If the lane is so bad you can't get a stock truck down then it should not be driven.

HOWEVER these are rights of way that have existed for thousands of years and in many cases were quagmires when used with horse drawn iron wheeled wagons. To completely ban vehicular traffic often leads to the lanes becoming overgrown. Councils don't have money to maintain them and non-vehicular users such as ramblers do not volunteer for maintenance so the end result is a loss of a right of way. It is irrelevant who the land belongs to, they must rub their hands with joy when the anti 4x4 types get a lane closed because the subsequent inevitable loss of the ROW increases their land value. I have personally witnessed wealthy people extending gardens and even buildings over land that was previously a ROW. It suited them fine to have the TRO imposed and in two cases I knew of the land owners were the ones who petitioned for TRO and profited directly from that when they sold the land for development.

In my opinion the ROW's should be maintained as ROW's even if under TRO's. If the councils had to maintain the lanes under TRO I think there would be less TRO's issued and more willingness to work with voluntary organisations (mostly vehicular). Sadly in my experience, a temporary TRO often becomes permanent. Sure, some of that is due to idiots abusing them but some is down to profiteering. I would favour more draconian penalties for vehicles using lanes in poor condition than lose the ROW forever IMHO.
I dont buy the profiting from closing them argument one bit. Its the landowners responsibility to maintain them. In our case in one spot the council has asked us not to so as to discourage its use . You have to face the fact that these rights of way were established in a bygone day for a logical purpose mainly for droving livestock to market. They would never need to be created now and the only purpose they serve is for those who use them recreationally and make them impassable for other users who are using them more for their intended original purpose. We have one were 2hrs of irresponsible use by several thrill seekers make it unusable by horses or walkers for the rest of the winter. You cannot legislate to stop the damage it doesnt work as it occurs so quickly and the culprits unknown.
Speaking as a landowner we have no issue with responsible use however as I said before they only become attractive to some the more impassable they become.
 

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After the xmas break, I thought I'd post up some of my Greenlaning over the plain. Some pictures of the snow we had too. The Church is St. Giles in Imber on the plain.
For some reason I didn't notice that you were so close to me. We should do a little trip out at some point.

Also, for everyone reading, Salisbury Plain has got a voluntary TRO in place at the moment on some of the routes. Please check before going on the Plain which routes are covered as we don't want them going to a permanent TRO
 

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Discussion Starter #10
For some reason I didn't notice that you were so close to me. We should do a little trip out at some point.

Also, for everyone reading, Salisbury Plain has got a voluntary TRO in place at the moment on some of the routes. Please check before going on the Plain which routes are covered as we don't want them going to a permanent TRO
Yeah we should, there are some good lanes around here, any in Berkshire?

Yes the VTRO is on the lanes between Shrewton, Tilshead and Chitterne. Essentially, out by the German Village.
No signage though which is a bit frustrating, because how are people going to know?
The rest of it was open over xmas though.
 

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I dont buy the profiting from closing them argument one bit. Its the landowners responsibility to maintain them. In our case in one spot the council has asked us not to so as to discourage its use . You have to face the fact that these rights of way were established in a bygone day for a logical purpose mainly for droving livestock to market. They would never need to be created now
Agreed. Fair point.

and the only purpose they serve is for those who use them recreationally and make them impassable for other users who are using them more for their intended original purpose. We have one were 2hrs of irresponsible use by several thrill seekers make it unusable by horses or walkers for the rest of the winter. You cannot legislate to stop the damage it doesnt work as it occurs so quickly and the culprits unknown.
Speaking as a landowner we have no issue with responsible use however as I said before they only become attractive to some the more impassable they become.
I'm hopeful that technology can help in future as it gets cheaper. ANPR cameras and other vehicle identification systems on entry points to lanes could not only serve to discourage abuse but could even be used to collect tolls which could help fund maintenance?

While not true of all lanes, there must be a few where the council/land owner may be better collecting tolls and allowing the lane to be used in a similar way to a pay&play site. If the lane can't be policed and abuse happens anyway, might prove more sensible to make some money out of it. I guess the biggest problem there is disruption to neighbouring property or damage to crops etc when vehicles go off track. The more remote lanes may work as toll routes though? At least you'd have some money rolling in for maintenance or to go to local communities. I'm sure most people would not mind paying a small toll (eg. £2) to use a particularly scenic or challenging route? Let's face it, if no solution is found then the ROW's will simply vanish which would be a shame.
 

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I would not be surprised to see wide scale road charging schemes in place within 20 years anyway because IF electric or hybrid use takes off then HMRC will suffer a significant fall in fuel duty. Not easy to apply fuel duty to an EV so seems fair to switch to a pay for use scenario?

Once that technology is in widespread use on public roads it will be cheaper and easier to apply to ROW's?
 

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Discussion Starter #13
While not true of all lanes, there must be a few where the council/land owner may be better collecting tolls and allowing the lane to be used in a similar way to a pay&play site. If the lane can't be policed and abuse happens anyway, might prove more sensible to make some money out of it. I guess the biggest problem there is disruption to neighbouring property or damage to crops etc when vehicles go off track. The more remote lanes may work as toll routes though? At least you'd have some money rolling in for maintenance or to go to local communities. I'm sure most people would not mind paying a small toll (eg. £2) to use a particularly scenic or challenging route? Let's face it, if no solution is found then the ROW's will simply vanish which would be a shame.
I pay road tax already. These lanes are part of the highway system, I have to have TAX, MOT and Insurance to drive them. They are not private land.
Are we going to Toll motorcycles, farm machinery, walkers and horses, they all cause damage.
It's almost like you need a sort of license, with a fee that gives you, in return a small disc to place in the windscreen to show you've paid!
You need to pay annually. A national one that covers you for a year. Thing is, Farmers, MOD, Logging companies, motorcyclists, and 4x4 owners all need to pay in.
It's almost like Road TAX again but used properly to repair a road!
Ever since it moved to an envirotard CO2 tax, the road conditions have gone down hill. Byways will go the same way. Glass and the TRF are doing their very best to stop it/slow it down though. I'm just filling in my subscription now!
 

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Yeah we should, there are some good lanes around here, any in Berkshire?

Yes the VTRO is on the lanes between Shrewton, Tilshead and Chitterne. Essentially, out by the German Village.
No signage though which is a bit frustrating, because how are people going to know?
The rest of it was open over xmas though.
I thought there was signage. Ridiculous that there isn't.

The lanes around here are OK. I've only done a few as I'm normally on my own so can't venture into those that look a risky.
 

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We lost 90% of the so called green lanes in 2000 with the NERC bill, sponsored by the handful of exceedingly wealthy individuals who own most of England.

The councils have resorted to TROs as they don't have the power to close the byways, claiming that they don't have the funds to repair them. They never maintained them anyway.

Personally, apart from Salisbury plain, I haven't used a byway for over a decade. If I want to do some off roading I go pay and play.

The anti 4x4 lobbyists have pretty much won.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I thought there was signage. Ridiculous that there isn't.

The lanes around here are OK. I've only done a few as I'm normally on my own so can't venture into those that look a risky.
Well, give me a shout when you are free next and we can meet up... Towards the end of Jan /early Feb is better for me
 

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I pay road tax already. These lanes are part of the highway system, I have to have TAX, MOT and Insurance to drive them. They are not private land.
Are we going to Toll motorcycles, farm machinery, walkers and horses, they all cause damage.
It's almost like you need a sort of license, with a fee that gives you, in return a small disc to place in the windscreen to show you've paid!
You need to pay annually. A national one that covers you for a year. Thing is, Farmers, MOD, Logging companies, motorcyclists, and 4x4 owners all need to pay in.
It's almost like Road TAX again but used properly to repair a road!
Ever since it moved to an envirotard CO2 tax, the road conditions have gone down hill. Byways will go the same way. Glass and the TRF are doing their very best to stop it/slow it down though. I'm just filling in my subscription now!
You seem to believe that they are public land they are NOT and the landowner ultimately is held responsible for maintaining them . There are some real misconceptions out there!
 

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I don't need anyones permission to use a BOAT therefor its not private land, it may cross your land, but so what? You just have to keep it passable, as in don't obstruct it on purpose. If you do obstruct it, I have the right to move the obstruction to allow me to pass, it or go around it. My vehicle has to be road worthy, taxed and tested, as if on the queens highway. If, as has happened here trees fall across the path, I call the council to clear it. Now I don't know who ends up clearing it in the end, it may well be a land owner. But ultimately, its a PUBLIC right of way.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
In fact why do the councils slap TROs on them if they run over private land and its not their responsibility? Why are there ROW officers in the council? I would agree the land either side of a byway is more than likely private. As in the case of the plain. But ultimately the byway is public.
 
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