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How "off road" is a Nav, really?

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#21 ·
Jason the Hut said:
Looks like fun, how much does it cost there, and where is it?
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http://www.motor-safari.co.uk/

It's these guys in North Wales. It's actually got a lot more than just what you see on the videos. It's where Top Gear went to train for their expeditions and the people that did the "world's most dangerous roads" series.
 
Discussion starter · #22 ·
I quite fancy a bit of that course, nice that you can pick your level of difficulty.

On a similar not my brother works at a 4x4 manufacturer in the midlands (nameless of course) not for them direct I add, and he says their off road experience has parts of it with solid concrete under the mud and water.......
 
#23 ·
freemansteve said:
Wrong end of the stick here - I'm not proposing to do any off roading, check OP :) ! Therefore I've personally no need for a third diff, on any vehicle. The point was that this is one thing the Navara lacks, but which a serious off-roader ought to have, because you need to be able to lock front axle (left-right), rear axle (left-right) and front-axle-to-rear-axle. This is only way to guarantee that all wheels provide torque if you get stuck.
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No worries, I probably should have been clearer than only my first line was a reply to you! (A joke, of course, because the Navara doesn't have a centre diff. If you're in 4WD, torque is locked 50/50 front to rear whether you like it or not.)

In my opinion as a road car with my family in it, the lack of a centre diff, and therefore the requirement to remain in 2WD on the road, is the Achilles heel of the Navara and most of its competitors... although the Amarok's torsen centre diff introduces its own problems. Mitsubishi's SuperSelect on the Triton is probably the best thing going in utility vehicles, it's just a pity about the car they built around it ;)

My Patrol has neither a centre diff nor any electronic traction aids, and things can be a bit... interesting in the rain. What's that in my mirror passing me on the inside? Oh, it's the back end of my car...
 
Discussion starter · #24 ·
most of my neighbours, the farmers have Landies, now why are they permanent 4wd? switchable seems so much better for day to day, with 4wd only needed , well when its needed.

I think a lot of this is down to sales and image, people want to tell you how their £100k range rover will go any where, but it wont until some guy buys it twenty years later for 2k.....

I am sure some of the detail and spec on a Nav is to meet regulations and requirements, such as mine being a dual purpose vehicle etc, I am told that is why the back seats are a little cramped, due to the ratio of load to passenger space.
 
#25 ·
Jason the Hut said:
most of my neighbours, the farmers have Landies, now why are they permanent 4wd? switchable seems so much better for day to day, with 4wd only needed , well when its needed.



I think a lot of this is down to sales and image, people want to tell you how their £100k range rover will go any where, but it wont until some guy buys it twenty years later for 2k.....



I am sure some of the detail and spec on a Nav is to meet regulations and requirements, such as mine being a dual purpose vehicle etc, I am told that is why the back seats are a little cramped, due to the ratio of load to passenger space.
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I find that's exactly when permanent 4WD is useful - when you need to use your car on a high traction surface like a sealed road, pop into the paddock for a bit to check a fence, back out onto the road to get down to the barn... Having to stop each time to engage or disengage 4WD gets a bit tedious.
 
Discussion starter · #26 ·
JDO said:
I find that's exactly when permanent 4WD is useful - when you need to use your car on a high traction surface like a sealed road, pop into the paddock for a bit to check a fence, back out onto the road to get down to the barn... Having to stop each time to engage or disengage 4WD gets a bit tedious.
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Ok I sort of get that, by default the sticker from my sunvisor suggests you can shift between 2 and 4h on the hoof, as it only states to stop when shifting between 4h and 4l......

Also we are saying that the lack of a centre diff is the reason we don't leave it in 4h on tarmac, and that this 50-50 front to rear split is making the Nav better off road. A diff front to back would mean if one wheel were to lose traction then we would only spin that one?

When i got the Nav stuck in mud, and this has only just occurred to me, the suspension had dropped and was actually sitting on the bumpstops, the whole of the front axle was dragging through the crud as i tried to move out....now i have lifted the truck to the correct height these components would not have dragged, and i have better tyres.
as i dial in the maintenance that my truck has missed out on over the last few years it is going to work better on all surfaces ( it is already massively better on the tarmac, thanks to advice and tips from here!)
 
#27 ·
Jason the Hut said:
Also we are saying that the lack of a centre diff is the reason we don't leave it in 4h on tarmac, and that this 50-50 front to rear split is making the Nav better off road. A diff front to back would mean if one wheel were to lose traction then we would only spin that one?
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Sort of. You're right in that the reason we cant use 4wd on the road is because of the lack of center diff, and a landrover has a center diff, meaning it can be used on road. However landys also have center diff lock, which is effectively the same as the Nav when that is engaged, permanent 50:50 split front to rear. I would agree its a downside to the Nav, for example and snowy/icy roads, unless they are visibly covered, i wont use 4wd, it would be nice to have constant 4wd that you diddnt have to worry about as the snow melted a little or was patchy.

Rich
 
#28 ·
Jason the Hut said:
Ok I sort of get that, by default the sticker from my sunvisor suggests you can shift between 2 and 4h on the hoof, as it only states to stop when shifting between 4h and 4l......
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In theory, this is true. I've never tried doing it in a Navara so it might be great, but on every other vehicle I've owned whether the transfer case is operated by mechanical lever or an electronic selector, 9 times in 10 it doesn't work immediately. In fact I've been stranded in the Alpine River in my Pajero with the bloody transfer case in neutral once, water pouring under the door seals, bouncing the car back and forwards to try and get it to take up 4L. My Patrol is probably closer to 50/50 success rate when changing on the fly, but it has a dirty great lever I can heave on and feel whether it's taking up or not. My new Nav will be back to electronic roulette.



A diff front to back would mean if one wheel were to lose traction then we would only spin that one?
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Depends how your axles are set up. The centre diff only controls torque front to rear: how the torque is then distributed between the two wheels at either end is up to the front/rear diffs (and traction control, if you have it).

Let's assume you have open front and rear diffs and no TC... If you have an open centre diff with no lock on it then one spinning wheel will take 100% of the drive and you'll stop moving. A limited slip centre diff like the Amarok will continue to provide at least some drive to the other axle. A locked centre diff (Defender, Triton, G-Wagen, Prado) or a part-time system with no centre diff (Navara) will provide 50% of the drive to the other axle.

This means one spinning wheel will leave at least two other wheels with drive. In 99% of cases that's probably enough. If you add cross-axle diff locks or limited slip then all four wheels will continue to receive power no matter what.

The best system possible is that in the G-Wagen with three selectable diff locks and permanent 4WD, PLUS a very effective traction control program and hairy-***** tyres.
 
#29 ·
Having done a lot of off roading...

Getting stuck is not a problem, it goes with the territory.

Cross axle difflocks will get you further, but will also get you a lot more stuck. Many times I have come across people with all four wheels turning with the axles resting on mud.

Two things make the most difference, the tyres and the driver. Tyres will help you with ruts and slippery surfaces.

A good driver knows the limits of his vehicle and will take a route that the vehicle can cope with.

So yes, stick some decent boots on a navara and an experienced pilot, it is a good off roader. Not the best, but very capable.
 
Discussion starter · #30 ·
landmannnn said:
Having done a lot of off roading...

Getting stuck is not a problem, it goes with the territory.

Cross axle difflocks will get you further, but will also get you a lot more stuck. Many times I have come across people with all four wheels turning with the axles resting on mud.

Two things make the most difference, the tyres and the driver. Tyres will help you with ruts and slippery surfaces.

A good driver knows the limits of his vehicle and will take a route that the vehicle can cope with.

So yes, stick some decent boots on a navara and an experienced pilot, it is a good off roader. Not the best, but very capable.
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Probably the most accurate and succinct answer yet.
Tyres are the last thing (or first) to touch the terrain, and the driver has to use his skills not just for picking a route, but the best gear, and appropriate throttle etc for any given scenario.
I have watched a lot of guys wheeling, on youtube, in the States, and they throw mods n money at their 4x4's - check out Fred on dirt every day !
 
Discussion starter · #34 ·
I treked through a muddy field to a pond today, last time i went we had to break out the Massey Ferguson, and chains (not a 4x4 btw) No drama at all.
I think i will have to have a trek around some of the farms here I think plenty of trails about to have an explore on
 
#36 ·
Sorry to revive an old thread.

Here in RSA, I use my D40 Navara on a lot of the 4x4 trails. Have used it on one of the top 3 terror trails in South Africa, Moegatle. Mostly grade 4 and grade 5 obstacles. It manages to keep up. On most of them, only drawback is that it's low. As soon as I lift it, it will be unstoppable...

Sent from my E5303 using Tapatalk
 
Discussion starter · #37 ·
I think my question is perhaps about the design brief, was it designed to go Offroad, or to tow, or to carry goods?
I mean despite a theoretical 1 tonne capacity, I doubt that really works as a load carrier.
Mine does tow well, but 4wd isnt part of that equation, and if its not an offroader why make it 4wd...

I actually think now that it is actually designed to come secod or third at lots of things rather than first at anything.

Since my last post on here I have worked my truck off road, towing and carting tools and tack, and of course the family.
It definetley goes where a car can't go, but it can't follow a 4wd tractor everywhere that it can go. and maybe a centre diff n lock would give it that extra security on road, but all in all it does what ever I ask of it. So far
 
#38 ·
Jason the Hut said:
I think my question is perhaps about the design brief, was it designed to go Offroad, or to tow, or to carry goods?
I mean despite a theoretical 1 tonne capacity, I doubt that really works as a load carrier.
Mine does tow well, but 4wd isnt part of that equation, and if its not an offroader why make it 4wd...

I actually think now that it is actually designed to come secod or third at lots of things rather than first at anything.

Since my last post on here I have worked my truck off road, towing and carting tools and tack, and of course the family.
It definetley goes where a car can't go, but it can't follow a 4wd tractor everywhere that it can go. and maybe a centre diff n lock would give it that extra security on road, but all in all it does what ever I ask of it. So far
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You could have taken the principle a lot further:

It's a makes a pretty poor car... high fuel consumption, harsh handling and not much room in the back
It makes a pretty poor commercial vehicle..... Can't carry much weight, load space small etc
It is a rubbish off roader.... poor break over, approach and departure angles
Towing capacity is low, well below the 3.5t standard.

It is a case of the whole being greater than the sum of the sum of the component parts, add up all the poor performance and you get something pretty good.
 
#39 ·
From my personal experience.

Yes, it has a terrible break over and departure angle. The approach angle is pretty decent. However, the low range, I just crawl up and through most things.

As for the towing, mine has a tow rating of 3.5tons. And I have towed that weight before.

As for comfort, it's the most comfortable vehicle that I have owned. However, I haven't owned any upper market cars.

For mine and families needs, it's the perfect vehicle.

I have always believed that you need to base your decision on what you need, rather than what you want.

Sent from my E5303 using Tapatalk
 
#40 ·
I use mine for going to work primarily. Towing a 100kg caravan and from time to time a 3ton trailer. Hauling stuff around and to get my arborist stuff where I need to get it. Also i pull a smaller trailer at the site's where only a tractor could go to haul wood out of the forest or meadow. Up until now she never failed to do eny of the above.
 
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JDO
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