How "off road" is a Nav, really?

Jason the Hut · Jun 7, 2016

Hi As the title really, Just how off road is a Navara?
I mean I have friends with 4x4's, and compared to my one mates Honda CRV it seems pretty good, but another mate has a later model disco, which has locking diffs etc, which to me seems a pre requisite for an off roader....
CRV isn't even switchable (by driver) nor does it have low box.

I got mine stuck in mud almost as soon as I had it, once one wheel spins thats it! I have put more offroad tyres on since I might add.

I got the Nav as I needed a "dual purpose" vehicle to meet towing requirements and in that role it seems brilliant, but I just wonder how far I can take it, as on grass or mud it will spin.....or will it?
(mine has LSD by the way)

Another point is would anyone use 4h when towing a big load, on tarmac?

Cheers Guys Jas

landmannnn · Jun 7, 2016

Definitely do not use 4x4 on tarmac.
Off road is a question of how hardcore you want to be. A short wheelbase, 35" tyres, difflocks, two foot of suspension travel, roll cage, skid plates, winches makes a proper off roader.
If you want the versatility of a dual cab pickup then it will be compromised.
As you have already found out, decent tyres will get you most places.

lookskyward1 · Jun 7, 2016

For most situations your D22 will be pretty impressive.

Don't forget the early Landrovers (up to series3) had a very similar transmission setup without the advantage of a LSD and they are still considered pretty unstoppable off-road.

As Landmannnn says, a lot has to do with tyres and driver technique. Also do not use 4wd on sealed surfaces unless you really need to, you run the risk of causing transmission wind-up and damage.

quavey · Jun 7, 2016

Its very interesting that the navara and especially the new NP300 is sold as a capable of road vehicle, I'm sure it is but it got me thinking as in the brochure the approach, departure and breakover angles are published and it appears they are quite proud of them. I have an old P38 Range Rover (the unfairly unloved range rover in the land rover world) which is surprisingly capable and each of its approach, departure and breakover angles are better than even the new NP300.

Now my navara when it arrives will spend its entire life on a mixture of every motorway in the country so I'm unlikely to ever use it where those numbers matter - but it surprises me that (as many people will tell me) my "rubbish of road" old range rover would get further. Interestingly the weight is about the same, and it shows progress the 4.6 V8 in it is 215bhp and 300lbft vs 190bhp and 332lbft from the navara's 2.3 4 cylinder (half the capacity and half the cylinders) but even with her 4 speed (yes just 4!) autobox its still a second quicker to 60!

landmannnn · Jun 7, 2016

They are wrong about the P38.

It is good off road.

Reliability is shocking though....more likely to see one on a breakdown truck than anywhere else.

quavey · Jun 7, 2016

landmannnn said:
They are wrong about the P38.

It is good off road.

Reliability is shocking though....more likely to see one on a breakdown truck than anywhere else.

I know they are wrong lol. I used my first one a bit and a friend had a couple of others and they were all impressive and very comfortable. We went to a pay and play once in his 00 Vogue - we got some funny looks from the defender and discovery boys but that rangie went everywhere on that course

Reliability... well its like anything, they were ahead of their time and often badly maintained. Often its people bodging the faults that causes more problems in the long run. Having said that they are amazingly complicated but now the even more complicated L322 is getting that bit older they are getting more unreliable and difficult to fix

Black-Racer-799 · Jun 7, 2016

But you can't compare the Navara to the Range Rover. For once, as mentioned earlier, the reliability on the Range Rovers (except evoque) is really really bad.

2nd of all, the Navara is much much longer than the Range Rover p38: 185 inches (RR) vs 207 (D23) which i'm sure won't help.

3rd: When doing a dyno test on English car brands like: Land Rover, Aston Martin, ... They never seem to make the power that is advertised. On the other hand, the Navara will.

If you have to compare to RR to something, it should be Patrol & Land Cruiser.

Now it seems i'm a bit harsh on the Range Rover, I do actually like them a lot, especially the looks :-o

seaneb · Jun 7, 2016

Jason the Hut said:
Hi As the title really, Just how off road is a Navara?
I mean I have friends with 4x4's, and compared to my one mates Honda CRV it seems pretty good, but another mate has a later model disco, which has locking diffs etc, which to me seems a pre requisite for an off roader....
CRV isn't even switchable (by driver) nor does it have low box.

I got mine stuck in mud almost as soon as I had it, once one wheel spins thats it! I have put more offroad tyres on since I might add.

I got the Nav as I needed a "dual purpose" vehicle to meet towing requirements and in that role it seems brilliant, but I just wonder how far I can take it, as on grass or mud it will spin.....or will it?
(mine has LSD by the way)

Another point is would anyone use 4h when towing a big load, on tarmac?

Cheers Guys Jas

You wont need 4H when towing no matter how big the load. The Navara is the next best thing to a proper off-roader.

gfromleeds · Jun 7, 2016

Black-Racer-799 said:
But you can't compare the Navara to the Range Rover. For once, as mentioned earlier, the reliability on the Range Rovers (except evoque) is really really bad.

2nd of all, the Navara is much much longer than the Range Rover p38: 185 inches (RR) vs 207 (D23) which i'm sure won't help.

3rd: When doing a dyno test on English car brands like: Land Rover, Aston Martin, ... They never seem to make the power that is advertised. On the other hand, the Navara will.

If you have to compare to RR to something, it should be Patrol & Land Cruiser.

Now it seems i'm a bit harsh on the Range Rover, I do actually like them a lot, especially the looks :-o

Give the evouge a chance it's still fairly new once they hit the 5 years old wall it'll be just like the rest of the range rover fleet and you'll see them spending the weekends sat on axle stands up and down the country
Your right about the p38 though I've had 2 of them. First one was unreliable to the point I hired a car to go on holiday, second one was worse
I do miss them but that quickly passes when the weekend comes and I don't have to spend it under the bonnet

freemansteve · Jun 7, 2016

Navs are only moderate off road IMHO, they are more a work vehicle for 'difficult' terrain, such as poorly maintained tracks, wet grass, rutty or gravelly roads etc. Funnily enough pretty perfect for towing a heavy caravan!

Unless you have 3 manual lockable or 3 limited-slip diffs you cannot guarantee all wheels will drive when you get stuck (one can spin on the stock, recent Nav setup), so in my book that's not true 4WD. You also have poor wheel articulation and not too great a departure angle. As standard there is no protection underneath - watch out for sump, fuel tank and that live axle. The Nav is also too heavy - it's meant to be a heavy duty load-carrier/load-tower.

I don't off-road, bar going on a few difficult tracks and it's OK compared with a car, mostly owing to ground clearance, but the live axle is dreadful for your teeth.

Honestly, if you want to do proper off-road fun, look elsewhere.

seaneb · Jun 8, 2016

Well this is the wife having a play on a local off road course in my Nav with standard suspension and diffs. It's also an auto. She's never done anything like this before (as you can probably tell from the excited commentary), but it just goes to show how capable they are even with a complete novice behind the wheel. The water was about 2 ft deep and you can't really tell exactly how steep the slopes and banks are.

JDO · Jun 8, 2016

freemansteve said:
Unless you have 3 manual lockable or 3 limited-slip diffs you cannot guarantee all wheels will drive when you get stuck (one can spin on the stock, recent Nav setup), so in my book that's not true 4WD. You also have poor wheel articulation and not too great a departure angle. As standard there is no protection underneath - watch out for sump, fuel tank and that live axle. The Nav is also too heavy - it's meant to be a heavy duty load-carrier/load-tower.

I take your point, but where were you planning to install the third diff?

Compared to my Patrol, which is a dedicated off-roader, the Navara is lighter and more powerful and has traction control which still works when the rear diff is locked (which older Navaras do not, I will grant you). It lacks wheel articulation and suffers from poor departure and ramp over, but it's still a decent off-roader.

It will do more than 90% of owners will ever ask of it, and a few simple mods and good driving technique can make that about 95%. If you're regularly testing wading depth or suspension flex, you should probably have a different car (and probably shouldn't be planning to tow anything).

That's my theory anyway. Coming from a very competent off-roader with two lockable axles, I think they're not all that. A locked axle can't magically create more traction, it's more useful on big rutted slopes where wheels keep leaving the ground.

17743 · Jun 8, 2016

yep agreed lockers are only ever any good where one tyre cant find traction having said that in this day and age am very disappointed the navara doesn't have a centre diff so it can be used on hard surfaces in rain etc.

Also had a Patrol with lockers front and rear 4 inch lift and 33s awesome but heavy, would get stopped but you couldnt break the damn thing, tin worm got it in the end.

Re earlier comment about Diffs front rear and centre we dont have a centre to lock its just 50/50 locked in 4x4

freemansteve · Jun 8, 2016

JDO said:
I take your point, but where were you planning to install the third diff?

Compared to my Patrol, which is a dedicated off-roader, the Navara is lighter and more powerful and has traction control which still works when the rear diff is locked (which older Navaras do not, I will grant you). It lacks wheel articulation and suffers from poor departure and ramp over, but it's still a decent off-roader.

It will do more than 90% of owners will ever ask of it, and a few simple mods and good driving technique can make that about 95%. If you're regularly testing wading depth or suspension flex, you should probably have a different car (and probably shouldn't be planning to tow anything).

That's my theory anyway. Coming from a very competent off-roader with two lockable axles, I think they're not all that. A locked axle can't magically create more traction, it's more useful on big rutted slopes where wheels keep leaving the ground.

Wrong end of the stick here - I'm not proposing to do any off roading, check OP

! Therefore I've personally no need for a third diff, on any vehicle. The point was that this is one thing the Navara lacks, but which a serious off-roader ought to have, because you need to be able to lock front axle (left-right), rear axle (left-right) and front-axle-to-rear-axle. This is only way to guarantee that all wheels provide torque if you get stuck.

freemansteve · Jun 8, 2016

seaneb said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uD_TFOwHm3g&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53jICNlEmWU&feature=youtu.be

Well this is the wife having a play on a local off road course in my Nav with standard suspension and diffs. It's also an auto. She's never done anything like this before (as you can probably tell from the excited commentary), but it just goes to show how capable they are even with a complete novice behind the wheel. The water was about 2 ft deep and you can't really tell exactly how steep the slopes and banks are.

Lots of fun, it's really a muddy track with fords though - it's the rockier courses that are hard, where the wheel articulation gets tested! 2 feet of water would however, kill most 4x4 cars. I could nevertheless almost imagine seeing the dents in the roof lining from your head on the bumpy bits!

Rich. · Jun 8, 2016

freemansteve said:
Wrong end of the stick here - I'm not proposing to do any off roading, check OP ! Therefore I've personally no need for a third diff, on any vehicle. The point was that this is one thing the Navara lacks, but which a serious off-roader ought to have, because you need to be able to lock front axle (left-right), rear axle (left-right) and front-axle-to-rear-axle. This is only way to guarantee that all wheels provide torque if you get stuck.

Dont really see you point here? Very very few vehicles come with a front diff lock from factory, and still a rare amount come with a rear diff lock. 99% of vehicles with front and rear lockers will have them fitted aftermarket, as i have done with mine. I think you're also getting confused on the 3rd diff and transfer arrangement, you dont need a 3rd locking center diff if it doesn't have a center diff. The front and rear wheels are permanently linked 50:50 when in 4wd. A live axle is also not a hindrance, sure they dont give quite as much clearance as IFS, but they are considerably stronger and can be set up to offer considerably more flex than IFS. Its that reason that makes most peoples ultimate mod for an IFS offroad vehicle a solid axle swap up front.

The main problem with the Nav is its size when off-road, its massive wheelbase means it grounds out regularly, but this is countered by the fact that a longer wheelbase climbs better than a short one, although it more likely to ground out as it rocks over the brow of the hill.

I certainly wouldn't pitch the Nav as a pay and play competition truck, but for long distance expeditions, greenlaning and overlanding its a brilliant vehicle and very capable, the same applies to almost any long wheel base vehicle though, including the infamous landcruiser. I regularly go out with discos, deffenders, suzukis when offroading and, mostly due to my lockers, the nav is by far the most capable truck 99% of the time.

Rich

freemansteve · Jun 8, 2016

Sure, when in 4WD mode the Nav locks the front axle to rear as standard, but doesn't that leave it so you can get one rear wheel turning and one wheel with no torque? Same across the front axle, no? Other vehicles may well not even have locked front-rear axles. This is why off-roaders who choose a vehicle that doesn't come with LSD or diff locks have to fit them themselves if they want to do anything hard. Electro-mechanical automatic LSDs seem best to me, so you don't have keep switching the 4WD on and off if you get onto a grippy section. There's always someone who forgets to do this.

So my point was simply that as standard the 4WD arrangement of a Nav is pretty low-rent, even it is very common as a layout. As for live-axles, you are right about articulation and they are bone-crushing, even if they are strong. The Nav is fine for tough overlanding to a point. I have to say I was impressed by a friend's Range Rover on really bad terrain compared with what I thought my Nav would be like, and given what you see on this forum, I reckon it's a toss up as to what is reliable, especially with the 2.5 engines and rusty chassis. If I wanted to pursue it as a hobby, I'd just buy a more suitable vehicle right off the bat....

Rich. · Jun 8, 2016

freemansteve said:
Sure, when in 4WD mode the Nav locks the front axle to rear as standard, but doesn't that leave it so you can get one rear wheel turning and one wheel with no torque? Same across the front axle, no? Other vehicles may well not even have locked front-rear axles. This is why off-roaders who choose a vehicle that doesn't come with LSD or diff locks have to fit them themselves if they want to do anything hard. Electro-mechanical automatic LSDs seem best to me, so you don't have keep switching the 4WD on and off if you get onto a grippy section. There's always someone who forgets to do this.

So my point was simply that as standard the 4WD arrangement of a Nav is pretty low-rent, even it is very common as a layout. As for live-axles, you are right about articulation and they are bone-crushing, even if they are strong. The Nav is fine for tough overlanding to a point. I have to say I was impressed by a friend's Range Rover on really bad terrain compared with what I thought my Nav would be like, and given what you see on this forum, I reckon it's a toss up as to what is reliable, especially with the 2.5 engines and rusty chassis. If I wanted to pursue it as a hobby, I'd just buy a more suitable vehicle right off the bat....

Correct, but that just comes back round to axle diffs, no relevance of a 3rd diff. As i said above, very few vehicles come with axle diff lockers as standard, more with a rear but none that i know of with a front locker apart from some very specialist vehicles. The Navara was offered in Europe and Aus with a rear diff lock, as was the Frontier in the US, just not something we ever got here. Axle diff lockers are used differently to how you would use say a center diff lock in a landrover. Axle lockers are left in purely to navigate the obstacle, after that you can feel them dragging, especially the front where you lose 70% steering ability with the locker engaged, so you knock them off again. With a center diff lock you typically stick it in when you first leave the tarmac and take it out as soon as you get back on it, the same way we use our 4wd function. So no real risk of leaving them engaged accidentally, far more likely to leave it in 4wd mode.

If you have any doubts as to the offroad ability of the Navara, have a look on the Australian D40 pages on facebook, a Nav will keep up with the best of them, and in terms of dual cab pickups, they are typically head to head with a Hilux, and not any less capable than their landcruiser or patrol counterparts, just different.

Modern landrovers with their terrain response system are a different kettle of fish yet again, great for playing with on a farm or a campsite, but i would never use one as an overlanding vehicle simply because of the complexity of the system. At least if something goes wrong on the Nav's 4wd system, you can take the actuator off the transfer and operate it by hand, i'd hate to think what a modern landrover would do if you tried to do the same to it.

Rich

Jason the Hut · Jun 8, 2016

seaneb said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uD_TFOwHm3g&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53jICNlEmWU&feature=youtu.be

Well this is the wife having a play on a local off road course in my Nav with standard suspension and diffs. It's also an auto. She's never done anything like this before (as you can probably tell from the excited commentary), but it just goes to show how capable they are even with a complete novice behind the wheel. The water was about 2 ft deep and you can't really tell exactly how steep the slopes and banks are.

Looks like fun, how much does it cost there, and where is it?

Jason the Hut · Jun 8, 2016

Cheers for all the comments guys.
I suppose my question was based on having owned a few 4x4s over the years and having mixed feelings about what they can actually do, and what makes the difference between them all.

first one was an '86 Nissan 720 kingcab, 2.2 petrol i think. I liked this truck and did a little bit off road with it, and lots of towing.

Then I had a '94 Aisa Rocsta from new, and although they were slated in the press, it was a good vehicle, and great off road. I took it through ditches and up and down some pretty steep slopes and tracks.
Then we had a Frontera........

Now the d22, and you know i really quite like it (mind you its not as perky as my mates d40!

How "off road" is a Nav, really?

Jason the Hut

landmannnn

lookskyward1

quavey

landmannnn

quavey

Black-Racer-799

seaneb

gfromleeds

freemansteve

seaneb

JDO

17743

freemansteve

freemansteve

Rich.

freemansteve

Rich.

Jason the Hut

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